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Reply with quote  #61 
Hello all,
For the first time in my life I feel understood. For the first time in my life I feel that I am part of a community. I've always felt secluded and weird due to my Ns parents. I made wonderful friends talking to people on line, people abused and hurt just like me but reading all these posts, written by people who know EXACTLY what it's like was so refreshing.
I was very very scared recently. Because I was afraid that there is NO light at the end of the tunnel. I am always waiting for the "other shoe to drop" you see and I get anxious easily. I am working on it but I still cannot live life to the full. I am glad I found you guys and my therapist. I am no depressed now (huraaaayyyy!) but still have a long way to go because I still do not give myself permission to just be happy for NO reason, or to just be light for NO reason or to just be, well, me...But reading all your advice is giving me HOPE. HOPE that things CAN change. HOPE that I CAN and WILL live a functional life away from mindless perfectionism and doing all the right "moves" or pretending "everything is fine" when it clearly isnt fine. I am still mourning. Im at the mourning stage of the life that could have been but never was. For the little child that had a smile on her face and then she learned NOT to feel and smile. But this HOPE is here.
Thank you all. Thank you so very much. I am elated. I thank the person who originally thought of the forum. I thank the posters, I thank God, I thank the Universe, I pretty much thank everybody and hug everybody (dont mind the emotion, I am Greek after all what do you expect LOL)
Reply with quote  #62 
Welcome Rania.
Indeed you have a lot of friends here who have gone thrugh similar experiences and can empathize with your experiences. There is healing ahead. Hang in there! Post here any time you need to.
Reply with quote  #63 

Welcome!  You have found a place where you can express yourself
and vent when you need to.  So many here know exactly what you
are going through and all the feelings you have.  It is not an easy
road but you will find a reason to smile and be happy.
Things won't happen overnight. We have all be taught to be
a certain way.   It's hard to break away even into adulthood.
I'm sorry you had to endure this way of life like so many.
There is Hope and Light at the end of the tunnel.
Hugs and Welcome!
Reply with quote  #64 
I always felt that maybe it was me  Was I just being sensitive? Then I started reading about N personalities.  I found places like this where we are trying to heal.  It wasnt just me afterall...I was surrounded by many trying to feel validated.

Reply with quote  #65 
Thank you Suzi for your kind words. I have done a great deal of reading via the internet on N ex and found the following to be quite helpful - especially when N ex tries to make you and your children think you are the one that is "ODD."

If you are wondering whether your ex had it, here's a few questions to ask yourself.

Did yo"u feel regularly baffled or confused by his behavior? Did you start feeling like you couldn't trust your own judgement or that you might be losing your mind? When you tried to resolve a disagreement, did you feel like a dog chasing its own tail because he was more concerned about avoiding blame than resolving anything? Did he seem like Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde because he could be a wonderful man when he wanted something from you and then turned into a monster after his needs were met. Was he obsessed with money, power, and/or sex? Did he talk about his skills or accomplishments as though he was a brain surgeon or deserved the nobel prize? Was he more concerned about the opinion of other people than about your feelings? Did he ignore rules or laws as though they applied to other people and not to him? Did he behave as though he is more important than other people (e.g. unacceptable to have to wait in line, traffic, crowds, etc.)? Did he ever make statements about himself that indicated he believed he was speical or superior to other people? Does he view women in a conflicting way that shows both disdain and desire?

I could go on and on.... "

Another article that helped me understand one of my sons better was one dealing with mother/son relationships - I am sure my N Ex has taunted this son with the "Mommy's-boy" label.

See the following link -

I hope we all can find peace some day.  I still grieve each day.

Reply with quote  #66 

I'm truly sorry you had to be married to an N.   As you know my
Mom was an N and it is not easy to live with them.   I hope so
much that one day your sons will come around and realize that
they need you in their lives and your grandchildren need you their

My ex-husband was so controlling, I was 26 years younger and I married
young.   I couldn't have friends, I only knew his friends and they were
as old or older as he was.  I went to church back then and I met some
wonderful young women my age who were married and I still wasn't
allowed to know them.  He controlled everything, the house was only
in his name, bank accounts, cars.  I didn't have a say about anything.
I dated him for a year and he treated me well but when we were married
it all changed.   We had our beautiful daughter and I knew I just could
not stay.  I didn't want my daughter growing up with a mother who
was being controlled and watching her father do whatever he wanted.
I wanted her to know that marriage is loving and one doesn't control
the other.  But you work together.
So I left.  I gave him the house, money, I just wanted a car and
support for our daughter.   He was a good father to our daughter
and she loves her dad.   I know there are parents who only want
the children to love them.  My daughter if she was going to see
her dad in a bad light I wanted her to see that for herself not
ever coming from me.   I was not a perfect parent but I loved her
very much.   But something went wrong and I still don't know what.
I relive it over and over in my mind and still come up empty handed.
They have to come back to us, if we go begging I know my daughter
will see me as weak and I will always be disrespected by her.
We deserve the same love, kindness, respect they give their
fathers.   I hold onto hope that I will see my granddaughters again
and I will have a relationship with them.   I just have to be patient
and it will happen.   If my daughter decides to come back into my
life we will sit down and work on what went wrong.   I will always
be a little afraid of what if she does it again.

If you are like me, you get tired of being blamed for everything.
We are not perfect but we loved them and we are no less of a
parent than their fathers are.   We raised them, and we were
there for them.  I wish my daughter would remember all the
times she came and confided in me and the love I had and
have for her.  Her happiness always meant so much to me.

You have come through so much and you are here sharing and
on this board come anytime to share or vent.   There are others
like us who have also had their children leave their lives.
We will get through it.   It's sad and our hearts are broken
but we can go on and live life happy.
I have a wonderful son from my second marriage and he has a beautiful
wife and they have blessed me with two precious grandchildren.
A grandson and a granddaughter.
 I do have all four of them in my life and so thankful for them.
I could not have asked for a better husband than I have now.

I know you grieve and I'm so sorry. 
But always remember you are not alone.
I know that heartache also.
Please don't give up hope, your sons one day might come
around and see what their dad has done and come running
to their Mom.   I really hope and pray for you that day
will come for you.

You are not ODD at all,  N's well there is really no describing them.
I lived 54 years of my life with my NMom and I know exactly
what you are speaking of.   I know they will never see the
damage they have done.  But remember they have lost
huge.   Your husband does not have YOU in his life any

Please come and share anytime glad you found the board.
You are never alone!   Life goes on for us and we will be
alright.  I hope you have other family and friends in your
life and you are enjoying your life.
We can't change what is, but we can change the way we
react and feel.    I hope you are happy and going on with
your life for now.    We will never let go of our HOPE!

Thank you for the link.
Reply with quote  #67 

Hi, Im so sorry about what happened to you!!! It is very sad when you lose contact with your children! I dont have any children so I cannot know what it is like. I cannot put myself in your shoes. But that doesnt mean that I cant see how horrible it must be! I think that one day she will see the light and understand that you did your best to support her. Its never easy marrying an N. And these people twist the minds and opinions of everybody, sometimes even their own children. I would assume that having a NON-N mother would make a whole lot of difference to them, I never had that option. My folks were in complete and utter aggreement in their dealings with me. They took the abuse and mind-games in turns!!! But I suppose that the influences of the N father (your ex) and his manipulation is actually heightened by the fact that you are a NON-N. Somehow, he managed to "excuse" himself to her enough to make her question your "love" or "support". But she WILL come round. The lies do not hold for ever. At some stage she WILL see the truth. Hang in there! Im sending you positive energy and love and know that if you need to talk just start a thread and invite me over!!!!!!!

Reply with quote  #68 

Thank you for your kindness.   Having N's in our lives is not easy
to go or live through.   I appreciate your encouragment.
I'm sorry you had to live and know N's as your parents.
Hope you are doing alright.
I will never understand why they must have so much attention.
Thank you so much again for all your encouragment.
Take care of yourself and I hope you continue to post.

Reply with quote  #69 
I have been following this thread for a few days now. I have felt isolated my entire life, and it has been reassuring to read that other people have experienced the SAME THING! Wow. I cried because I felt affirmation that I truly am not the "crazy one". I decided to go NC with my N mom almost 7 months ago.  

My mom is psychotic. When I was 15 she punched me in the face while she was driving me to school. She had abused me my entire life (locked me in a closet, slammed on the breaks and sliced my face open on the dashboard to teach me to "wear my seatbelt") and that time I finally fought back.  She ended up throwing all of my stuff out, and I moved in with my dad and step-mom. I went to counseling and learned a lot about alcoholism - one of my mom's issues. A couple of years later, my dad and step-mom ended up divorcing.  My step-mom had a nervous breakdown and my dad was picking up the pieces of his life (we had many talks about his poor choice of women in the past). I was left without a place to go.  I had to call my mom to pick me up. After not speaking with her for a year and a half. She was so happy. She came and got her sad, helpless daughter. Once again she was in control. When I moved my belongings back into her house I discovered that there were no pictures of me in her house. She confessed to me that she lit a big fire one night during the time I didn't talk to her, and torched my baby album. My mom burned ALL of my baby pictures. She wouldn't let my dad have much during their divorce either. I am left with about 20 pictures of me as a baby that my mom later took from my grandma's house. I am 25 now. About a year ago, my husband and I snuck into her house when she was gone and took the album. I didn't trust her to have the remains of my baby pictures in her possession.

This last year I was pregnant (our first baby). My first trimester was really difficult.  The hormones were intense, and my N mom would try to cause conflicts between my husband and me. I see it clearly now, but at the time she acted like she was being "helpful" when she was actually making up stories. She is the type of N that pathologically lies and manipulates.  She would guilt me into volunteering at her work. I was throwing up and dealing with morning sickness. I told her I wasn't feeling well, but she got mad and gave me a guilt trip that I wasn't following through and that she was expecting me to help her that day.  I WAS THROWING UP! I dragged myself out of bed at 7 in the morning to run around as her servant that day. During my second trimester she told me every day that I needed to "do something" to make myself useful.  She once again guilted me into volunteering at her work.  She is a principal and I am a credentialed teacher (currently not working - I want to stay home until the babies start school). She ordered me around from early in the morning until the evening. She had me move books, vacuum the tops of cabinets, use cleaning solutions - which I felt uncomfortable doing, and volunteer in classrooms. A credentialed teacher volunteering in classrooms for free. She told me that she would do something nice for me for all of the help I was doing. One of the days I was there, a teacher said to me, "Oh my goodness, you're here again? What is she having you do NOW? Make sure YOU get something out of it this time."  This comment made me realize that she bosses all of the staff around too - obviously. The teachers were concerned about all of the lifting I was doing, but my mom didn't care. She just cared that I was getting stuff done for her.

As I was finishing up second trimester, she started to follow through with her offer to buy the crib for our baby. I NEVER asked her to do this. She had mentioned it several months before, but was so into herself and her job that she always changed the subject when I talked about decorating the nursery. I finally told her that I was going to order the crib, and she got mad and said that she was going to.  She spent hours looking at which one SHE thought was best for OUR baby. I told her that WE had already decided which one WE wanted. She told me after all of those hours looking online that she would get the crib for me for Christmas. This was early November. I told her no thank you, and that we would be purchasing our own crib for our baby. She said, "SORRY for trying to do something NICE for you. Sorry it isn't good enough to get a baby gift for you as a Christmas present." Ok, this goes deep here. First of all, she was physically and emotionally abusive to me throughout my life. My brother is what you would call the "golden child" in her eyes. He does not stand up to her about her alcoholism, and he does whatever she wants... and she gives him money and pays all of his bills. He is older than me and is still finishing up a teaching credential, and does his laundry at her house. Almost 30 years old and he is still under her coat tail. I have been the overachiever my entire life, and nothing I do is good enough.  She makes a good sum of money and spent $500 on my brother's girlfriend's dog to go to the vet. I was offended that she acted as though a $200 crib for my daughter was a hassle. It was one thing that she treated me horribly my entire life, but there was NO WAY I was going to let her treat another little girl the way she treated me. I pointed out that she was treating my brother's girlfriend's dog better than my daughter - her first grandchild.  Just because this was a little GIRL who was coming from ME.

She wanted the baby shower to be at her house, and my very close friend was going to throw it. I talked to my grandma, and we decided it was not a good idea to have it at my mom's house.  My grandma said my friend could throw the shower at her house (my friend lives a couple of hours away, and wanted to put the shower on down where I live so friends in the area wouldn't have to drive so far). When my mom found out this information, she called my grandma (extremely drunk) one night and screamed at her. She swore and called her names, and threatened to not do Thanksgiving or Christmas with her if she didn't cancel the shower. My grandma is a lonely widow, and so she followed my mom's wishes. She was afraid of being abandoned by her cut-throat daughter. My grandma called me the next day crying. She told me what had happened. Now there was going to be no baby shower at all. I felt crushed that my grandma wouldn't stand up to her. WHY AM I THE ONLY ONE who will stand up to her? Well, my husband stood up to her during all of this. I am very thankful for him. My grandma got my husband on the phone too, and told us she had some bad news. My mom had DRUNK DIALED his mother and verbally shredded me, and told her lies about our marriage. My mom told his mom that she needed to "get him away from me" and that I was "crazy and bi-polar". His mom lives far away, and I don't know her all that well. My husband doesn't know her all that well either. Who has a mother who drunk dials their mother-in-law to rip on them? What kind of mother does that to their PREGNANT daughter???? I am still shocked thinking about this. I broke out into hives while I was pregnant, and I couldn't sleep for four nights (after this happened). This was when I decided to go NC.

My N mom missed out on my third trimester of pregnancy.  She missed out on the birth of our daughter. She never attempted to apologize or talk about this. I only received one text message from her asking if I wanted to go to a cookie baking contest that we used to go to (I was always her sober driver). This was one of the many (and the LAST) times she asked to USE her pregnant daughter as her sober driver.

I am facing the awkward situation of what to do with my relationship with my grandma. I found out that my grandma hides my daughter's pictures when my mom goes over to her house, because my mom asked her to. My mom refused to know my daughter's birthday. They pretty much pretend like my daughter doesn't exist. I think it is wrong that my grandma enables this behavior. I think it is hurtful that they are now treating my daughter like she does not exist... treating her like my mom treated me. This really rubs me the wrong way. I felt like I was a bad child my whole life. I felt like I was unworthy of love. I felt like I needed to bend over backwards... serving her as a child - into adulthood - lifting things while pregnant. I don't feel as though my relationship with my grandma is healthy. I feel that it is bringing up hurtful emotions from my mom, even though I haven't talked to my mom for almost 7 months.

Does anyone have any advice? Do I need to go NC with my grandma? She does do some nice things every now and then.  She can get mean sometimes too, but can also be really supportive and nice. I feel torn about this. I cannot comprehend how a mother could be that way. I am even more baffled by it now that I have a baby girl. I realize that my mom never loved me. My mom doesn't love me. Never has loved me. Ugh. I get a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach when I think about this reality. 


1). Enjoying my daughter. Feeling joy at the reality that I am going to be able to have an authentic and true mother/daughter relationship for the first time in my life. I am taking care of a small human being who is potentially a lifelong friend of mine. I love her unconditionally. No matter who she wants to be. She is my daughter, and she is lovely just the way she is.

2). Enjoying my husband. He loves me more than anyone has loved me before. I am soaking in the love. It was really hard for me to accept his love at first. I didn't even understand what it meant. Now it is the most valuable thing in my life... his unconditional love as well as God's unconditional love for me.

3). Spending a lot of time with uplifting, strong, and healthy friends. My friends know how my mom is, and they remind me every time I talk to them that I am special and loved. This is surprising to me, because my mom would tell everyone that I have no friends. When, in fact, I have so many friends - I don't know what to do with myself! My grandma said she was shocked to see that SEVEN friends offered to throw a baby shower for my after my mom sabotaged the shower. Some friends put on the shower, and another friend made a 4 tiered cake! It was a beautiful day, and no - my mom was NOT invited. FREEDOM!

It is a work in progress. I am a mess some days still. One foot in front of the other. One step at a time.

Remember. If you ever feel like you can't do it. If you ever feel like you aren't strong enough to stand up to them. Remember that you are STRONGER than them. You are the stronger one for enduring all of the pain they put you through your whole life. This is your life. YOUR life. Take the high road and always do the morally sound thing. Have healthy boundaries, but treat everyone with kindness. Your humble heart will bring you peace. Soak in the love. If you feel alone and singled out, you aren't. I'm right there with you, and so are all of these other wonderful people.

Thank you for this thread. I'm really glad I came across it. Thank you for being an outlet for me to share my experiences. THIS is helpful for my healing.
rania to LH
Reply with quote  #70 
Hi LH,
First of all I'm giving you a HUGE hug and a HUGE hug to your beautiful baby!!! (I wont go as far as hugging your man, I have boundaries, but congratulate him from me for being such a great, supportive person!!!)

Your story trully touched my heart! You very much remind me of myself when I was 25 and I didnt really understand what was going on in my life. I knew my situation was horrible. I had just moved back in with my folks to financially help them out with their medical expenses and they usurped my entire life. I am a teacher myself and gave up a great teaching post in London to move back home to Athens cause they were guilt-tripping me and I couldnt possibly be "enjoying" myself in the UK while they were hard pressed for money!!! The moment I moved in, the "nice parents" facade wear off and I was faced with exactly the same abuse I endured during childhood over and over and over again...During that time, I felt very low and THAT'S when I came accross an article about child abuse! After that it took me another 6 years to find the right therapist who could put my situation in words "Narcissistic Personality Disorder" (among other PDs).

I encourage you to start your own thread with your experience, your life story, for two reasons. First of all, your story needs to be heard and that way more people will read it and more people will be able to offer their support and advice. Secondly, you are living proof of HOW an unchecked personality disorder could end up LETHAL for you (and in your case the life of your then unborn baby). In one of my previous posts I commended on how I almost died myself because of my parents negligence at age 25! It is VERY important for other survivors of PDs to READ this and understand that in some extreme cases, their LIFE could be at stake!!! It's not only about "nagging, unreasonable relatives" extreme cases, their self-serving, indifferent ways can KILL.

I totally understand what it's like to be living with a psychotic individual. The memories you have from childhood need to be addressed because they are VERY painful! And those images of abuse and neglect and FEAR are still there. I read your memory of your mother punching you and then throwing your stuff out of the house and I felt SO UTTERLY SAD. It was not on!!! This behavior is not on! And yet, they do it over and over and over again. Just because THEY are addicted and THEY are angry, they lash out and do WHATEVER to us children and its somehow "ok" for them...My first piece of advice would be to get some support either through a councillor OR a trusted friend (you are blessed with good friends) to come to terms with your earlier abuse because unfortunately memories like that have a life of their own. They are open wounds that bleed and hurt us! You owe this to yourself. Air them, talk about them, heal them!!!!

You are not crazy LH. You are SO NOT crazy! Sometimes, it feels as if you are living in a nightmare that cant possibly be true! You have to pinch yourself to believe it. Incidents happen that absolutely make NO sense and you think "is this actually real? Is it possible that I am making it up? Surely there is SOMETHING I dont get right!!! A mother of all people cant possibly be hurting her own offspring like that". This is normal and you know what? You are absolutely right. A MOTHER in the strict definition of the word, a compassionate, loving, supporting, understanding and loyal to her children and their wellbeing individual DOES NOT act like that. No, a MOTHER puts the life of her child first! But unfortunately for so many of us, we are biologically linked to people, entities that are only termed as "mothers or fathers or siblings". They have the title but not the grace (Greek proverb, I know it doesnt translate well into English but I'm sure you get the deeper meening).

LH you are not alone. You are not crazy. The pain you have endured is VERY real. Just because its psychological and the "scars" arent showing, it doesnt make it less real. But you have an opportunity here. A huge opportunity. Up until this point, the abuse was definitely about YOU. And we as children of PDs, we have been treated like rubbish our entire lives, we have been "taught" to take it and believe we are nobodys. We have been taught to simply adhere to parental rules, respect the elderly parent, be good! And the guilt is IMMENSE. What you are experiencing is normal. Its the guilt a child feels when they are faced with the choice of either taking care of themselves and their needs OR dealing with the PD mother who DEMANDS all attention and complete compliance-allegiance!!!! ALL of us feel this guilt. Its bite is enough to keep us frozen.

But you HAVE an opportunity. This woman almost caused your life and the life of your child. Please do not take this lightly! You had a difficult pregnancy. And you know Im sure that the first trimester is the most dangerous of all. And instead of offering you support she had you working all day using cleaning solutions???? Ahm, HELLO??? You did what a typical PD child does. You trusted your mother and you did what she wanted you to do to keep her happy and content. The guilt played its role. BUT THIS WAS DANGEROUS. What would have happened if God forbid you lost the child??? I dont even want to think about that! I quite honestly dont!!! You can see that HER needs were above the physical well being of yourself and the unborn and this NEEDS to stop. She has proven that she IS a dangerous individual. And the "thank you" for all your help was to call your mother in law and spread lies???? Which again got you physically ILL and it was dangerous for the baby????

And good for you for wanting to protect your daughter from your "mother". Excellent choice!!!!!

I can understand how painful this whole deal is. As I said, I have no children but the "child abuse" I get trust me! What she is doing is hurting you emotionally because you have stood up to her. She is playing up like a little "brat" that didnt get her way and is STILL trying to control your life. She knows you want her LOVE and she is refusing to give it to you. Plus she is taking it one step further. She is controlling the ONE individual (related to you from her side of the family) that you are close to and have a "motherly relationship" with. So in effect this cow (excuse me but Im angry), is not only rejecting you as her daughter she is trying to get you doubly rejected by the other "mother figure" you have. This is NASTY and VILE.

Now, to answer your question LH. Your grandmother is in a very touch spot. I can see that she doesnt need to rock the boat because she is very lonely and a widow. Nevertheless, she is still an adult with a mind of her own. She is (in my view) too old to be able to extricate herself from the unhealthy relationship she has with her daughter. She is trying her hardest I suppose to have best of both worlds. Be there for her daughter (she is so afraid of her-just look at the intimidation!! she is even hiding the baby pictures), AND be there for you two. Unfortunately, in situations like that you CANT have best of both worlds. The NPD or PD, wants complete ALLEGIENCE. Not half measures. Your grandmother is putting herself between a rock and a hard place. And that is why she gets angry sometimes or is not very nice sometimes (if I read your post correctly). She is going under a whole lot of stress which unfortunately makes her short fused sometimes.

Now, ideally, I would say that your grandmother as an adult, would have to make an intelligent choice. Which is "dumping" her daughter who acts crap and supporting you, the person that trully loves and respects her and who will trully be THERE for her when she needs it (Im sure you wont turn your back on her and she knows it too). But she is TOO old and confused to make that decision. So you really need to consider what you HAVE or NEED to do. If your grandmother is tearing you apart with her actions (or lack thereof) I would talk to her first and explain myself. In a non-aggressive way. I would explain to her exactly how I feel and how much this is all affecting me. Im sure she will explain how she feels about the whole deal to.

But ultimately, if this emotional pain is too much to bear, for the sake of your daughter, yourself and your husband (and life), you might have to go NC with her. At least for a while until this whole thing subsides. OR you could have very controlled limited contact with her. On the times where you feel strong, with your husband by your side, for very brief visits so that you dont get innundated with feelings. Even though its might not be fully your grandmothers fault she IS THE ENABLER right now and you have to take care of YOUR FAMILY and daughter.

As far as the pictures are concerned. I see why you are hurting. The brain works in images and symbolism. The pictures are a token, a symbol of love and motherly affection. They are a token of your personal history, of "family". And without them you feel uprooted, lonely. Its like they destroyed not only the photo but the "illusion" of a real family. LH pictures mean nothing. A true mother has those pictures TATOOED on her soul!!! A real mother remembers everything without the slightest reminder. Your mother is "destroying" the pictures because she knows how painful it is to you. She probably KNOWS how important your personal history is to you. And that is why she refuses to look at your daughters pictures. But pictures are just objects. Our minds take million REAL pictures each day and THOSE nobody can take away. I think it would be so helpful if you made some art and attached the few pictures you have on it YOUR personal history that NOBODY can take away from you and then put some pictures of your daughter up. This is YOUR life, the life you salvaged from the debree. A token of what a survivor you trully are. Put it up in a prominent place in your house and look at it. I would be SO VERY PROUD.

You say that you are comming into terms with the fact that your mother never loved you. I do not know your mother. Based on the truths you have shared, I believe that it is true that she is NOT ACTING in very loving ways. Whether there is a shred of balanced, real, love inside of her I dont know. I feel exactly the same thing my friend. LH, only yesterday I was telling my husand that I feel like an orphan sometimes even though both parents are still alive. Because they never did one single loving thing to me. I cannot answer that question but I know that it is very painful. But you know what? Whether she does or doesnt love you, you still need to keep yourself away from her and protect yourself. Because ultimately, "love" means nothing if it is delivered in a self-serving, dangerous way. A viper could be just a kind animal doing its business like nature intended it to but its still a viper and I wouldnt take any chances!!! I could still like the viper as an animal or respect it, but wouldnt pet it!!!

I hope I could give you some solace regarding this feeling of "not being loved". Its a road that each and every one of us has to go through and it takes time. Comming to terms with it all is not easy. But I promise you that it DOES get better. You mourn, go through the stages of mourning and then suddenly you start letting go!

If you have the time please check the following webpages
Narcissist suck (not sure your mom is an NPD but still)
The stages of grief (a lot of info on line)
Life with a mentally ill parent (google will take you to the right place)
Psychopath: the mask of sanity
and THE GENEVA CONVENTION or HUMAN RIGHTS (you will see what human rights ARE it helps to have it in written form).

What you are doing to heal is excellent. I think you are definitely on your way to having a great life.

I am wishing you joy and happiness!!!!!!! And if you need anything we are ALL here for you. You are not alone. We are a nice bunch of people. UNITED.

Reply with quote  #71 

I'm so glad you have a wonderful husband and a beautiful daughter.
I grew up with an N as a Mom also.  I have been NC for almost two
years,  those of us who have lived with an N Parent the stories are
almost always the same.   It feels like we all had the same parent
which is sad.   They are uncaring, abusive, and the hardest part
is they will destroy your relationship with other family members.
I understand how you feel about your Grandma, I went NC with
mine.   She is loyal to my mom and I'm the uncaring daughter.
N's must retain their beliefs of how perfect and how everyone is
treating them terrible and they will do whatever it takes to make
others see them as the victim.  If your grandmother is hurting you
in anyway and not showing you love the way a grandmother should
then I would stay away from her also.  You are her granddaughter and
your grandmother should be able to keep your mom and you separate
and love you both.
You have been through so much and now you need people in your life
who truly love and care about you.   No one deserves to be treated so
poorly especially by our parents or grandparents.
Please watch your little one, N's have a way of also of trying to
turn their grandchildren against their mothers.   If your mom is
like my mine you won't have to worry about this, my mother never
wanted to be a grandmohter and she never cared.
But she would cry and blame them.  They don't know my mom they
know who she is but everytime I tried to get her to have a relationship
with them she never even tried.
I'm so sorry you don't have a loving kind mother, and your daughter
won't know a loving grandmother.  They just don't have it in them.
Nothing you did, it is within them and just protect yourself and your
family.  I'm so happy that you have a wonderful supportive husband
and hang on tight to him and your beautiful daughter and live in
happiness.   Mom and grandma won't change.
I spent my whole life I'm in my fifities to get my mom's love and I was
always met with abuse and a mom who I can now say never truly ever loved
me.  I have come to know that N's won't change and everything is
always about them.  
Wanted to come and let you know that you are not alone.
With your grandma if she cannot be good to your daughter then
I would stay away.   I wish I had kept my children from my mother
and my grandmother but they were so young so they didn't affect
my children as adults.  I will always be thankful they really don't
know my mom or grandmother.
I cannot tell you how many times I tried to get my mom and my
grandmother to love my children when they were babies and young
and I was glad that I kept them away from them when I saw there
was going to be no love or care for my children.   In reality they know
them, like you would know a stranger but they never got close enough
to love them.  So my children were spared heartache my learnng and
knowing that my mom and grandmother just doesn't love them.
I know it is such a difficult thing as a child and grandchild to have
to go through and discover.
Please come and post anytime, and my heart goes out to you
and your family.  But hold on tight to the ones who show and do
love you.
LH from my expierence N's only get worse in their behavor through
they years.
It is so hard to discover our moms only care about themselves
but we can as their daughters find peace and happiness.
Hugs to you and keep the ones who treat you with kindness,
love, and care close.
Please stay away and keep your precious daughter from your mom
if you can.   You both need love and people in your life who truly
care about you.  I truly wish I had learned about my mom and left
her when I was young.  She never was a mother.
Enjoy your life and your beautiful daughter and you and your husband
live in happiness and don't let mom or grandmother stomp on you
any longer.  All of you deserve so much better and so much
happiness in life.
Pressing On
Reply with quote  #72 
This is a good thread with a lot of wisdom that I bookmarked some time ago.

For me there were several keys. 

In college I went for counselling because I felt so lost and confused about my future, and the gentleman was the first person to tell me that how I had been raised was cruel and unbalanced.  I was so shocked to hear this, but hearing that from a professional truly helped.  His main focus was on career counselling, but I'm still thankful today at how he honed in on the source of my confusion and urged me to become who I was, not who my parents wanted me to be.

Then I am thankful for the various older couples who befriended me as a young adult and showed me what respectful relationships are like.  In time I married and that became a source of great healing.

Then I went for counselling four years ago as we were dealing with tough family issue that we were committed to working through, and for the first time I heard the term "narcissist."  That counsellor also told me that it was fine to minimize contact with the interactions got very unhealthy, taught me draw unyielding boundaries, and even layed out what I would be likely to face as my parents aged further.  She was so spot-on on everything.

I'm so thankful for those who have indeed being healing helpers!
Reply with quote  #73 
rania - Thank you for responding. Thank you for reassuring me that I'm not alone or crazy. My mom texted me telling me happy birthday the other day, and I have been struggling with guilt for not talking to her. My husband is telling me to not talk to her, and is reminding me why I have been NC with her. I came on here to remember why also. To stay strong and firm. For our little girl's sake. It's a very hard situation. I'm really curious to know your story... you mentioned mine hit home for you. I hope your healing is going well.

suzi - Thank you for your reply. I feel like I can relate a lot to what you have said. I have had a fear of my mom interfering and making up stories to tell to my daughter. I feel really uneasy about the thought of having her in our life. My mom texted me on my birthday the other day - just said "Happy birthday". I said "Thank you". That's it. I feel so guilty for not trying to talk to her. I feel afraid of getting sucked into it again. My husband is talking to me and reminding me of why I don't talk to her. It's hard for me to be mean to someone when they are being nice, but I guess all she did was say happy birthday. I'm curious, what did you tell your children about your mom? How did you explain to them why they don't see her?

Reply with quote  #74 
P.S. Thank you for the hugs.
rania to LH
Reply with quote  #75 
Hi LH,

I suspected that your mom would contact you at some point!! You went NC so at some stage she would HAVE had to make a move and approach you. Usually abusive personalities (or NPDs) will throw tantrums, become really evil, do nasty stuff and WAIT for the child or partner to succumb. If that doesnt happen and they feel they've "lost" the game (in the sense that they a) do not get all their needs met through other people they are in close contact with or b) they cant "stomach" the fact that they "lost" (it is the "who has the upper hand" game) then they reappear and make a grand entrance. This of course can be made via many routes! They usually become "kinder" or "more understanding" OR they contact you on birthdays, important religious festivals etc to "wish you well" (cause they know its considered "rude" not to respond kindly to another person during those times), they fake emergencies or health scares, or serious problems that ONLY you can address, they use family members and acquaintances...anybody that is willing to listen to THEIR side of the story and put pressure on you. People usually get confused and think its their "duty" to reconcile a family that is going through some troubles because they base their assumptions of what happened on what the NPD has said...They might even show up at your doorstep and cry and wail and ask for forgiveness, use children one might have and pretend they cant possibly live without seing theim...ANYTHING that hit the "guilt" button in you OR confuse you enough to get you to have second thoughts and wonder whether you have "overreacted" or are "undully harsh". Its mind games and psychological pressure.

You are feeling guilty because this is the normal thing to feel. This happy birthday text or call is a frequently used ploy!!!

My story is an ugly one like most stories comming from NPD children. My family was extremely disfunctional and unfortunately just when you think you have one layer of abuse sorted out, another pops up. My parents used extreme physical violence, mental violence(mind games,word games, negating of my sensory input and understanding, lies, reality scripting,fact omittance, denial etc), emotional (put-downs, shame, manipulation, minimization, negation of feelings, demand that I had NO feelings apart from the ones THEY wanted me to have WHEN they wanted me to have them), physical isolation (no contact with the outside world, isolation from family members, demand I had no friends apart from the ones they chose for me, monitoring of calls, letter opening, going through my stuff, bills, bank-statements, internal revenue paperwork, contacting work without my knowledge etc), psychiatric poisoning as I call it (demand I was medicated for nebulous psychiatric problems that I didnt have as a teenager, was taken to 4 different psychiatrists for evaluation and they ALL said I was balanced and there was no need for that but family therapy was necessary which never happened of course!), exposed to addictions and the whole array of withdrawal symptoms( they were taking prescription medication and anxiolytics, and since I didnt want to take the meds, force-fed me the medication in my meals to keep me subdued-which I later caught on and had to monitor what I ate-they never admitted to that), physical negligence as a child (no bath taking, denied meals on a daily basis, denied any form of exercise), punishing behaviors by removing all things that gave me pleasure (would destroy my things, my favorite books,clothes and games...I only had to point out I liked one thing and it would be taken from me), denied funds for further education so that I wouldnt go to University, religious punishments, incest and sexual harassment and abuse, medical negligence that almost caused me my life, denied surgery, denied physiotherapy.

That is in a nutshell. So the abuse I get trust me. If you want to read a little bit more see the comments on my "Robocop" post...One thing that SAVED MY LIFE is journalling!!! You cannot avoid the reality of the situation when your mind is unwilling to come to terms with what is going on. YOu just reread everything and it forces you to take action and keep AWAY.

Please listen to your husband and do not succumb to her guilt trip games. Its just a game!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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