| Chris2 |
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Reply with quote | #46 |
One of the hardest things you have to do with your Nparents is recognize them, and anything that helps with that is useful. There just are not any books that really encapsulate the willful meanness of the Nparent and the sickness they exude. I haven't yet read this book, though I eventually will, but it seems like a good starting point for understanding narcissism. I get the feeling that the therapist who wrote it, like so many therapists we know, doesn't have an Nparent and doesn't "get" it as a result. The book seems to be focusing on the DSM IV definition of narcissists, which seems to me to be a rather public subset of narcissists common in the "boss" and "spouse" category, and doesn't really describe the depth of the horror of having a narcissistic parent. Though narcissistic parents are always unloving and can be cold, certainly, the stories of people in this thread demonstrate they are anything but insensitive to the feelings of others. They're exquisitely sensitive. The problem is that they use that sensitivity to manipulate and control, and they use it to extract painful emotions from you on which they then "feed." They know what you're feeling. They know how much it hurts. And they enjoy it. They use that knowledge to torment emotionally and to instill the guilt that keeps you caring for them long after they've had their pound of flesh from you. When they want you to do something that you really shouldn't for your own well-being, they know exactly what to say to make you feel guilty and rotten. We tend to think that "empathetic and sensitive" mean "caring and kind." Narcissists are living testaments that knowing what someone is feeling isn't the same as caring. How you use the knowledge depends on whether you make ethical or evil choices. Narcissists chose lies, manipulations and sadism.
I often wonder if people who work with the children of the self-absorbed confuse narcissists with people with Asperger's Syndrome (high functioning autism), who genuinely do not have any empathy, and never will. They can also be very uncaring, because they simply do not understand what you're feeling and because they function in a world that makes no sense to them by following rules very strictly. The difference is that the narcissists turn it on and off.The folks with Asperger's never change. They also don't lie, don't manipulate and, in my experience are exceedingly ethical (because that is what happens when you follow the rules of ethics.)
I also think that as gg has already said, narcissistic parents really don't typically change their opinions of their children as they do or do not perform. I think they pick a scapegoat child and one or more "golden" children, and they sacrifice and undermine the scapegoat child every change they get. Among other reasons, they are training the scapegoat to care for them in their old age, as so many on here have commented. My own Nmom worked on me for years to train me to take care of her. It's important that the scapegoat not be too busy or important to care for Nmom, hence that child will be endlessly cut down and diminished, regardless of his or her achievements. When the scapegoat does well, the parent doesn't transfer affection to that child. The parent undermines and demeans the child's achievements. Often the golden child(ren) falls right into line with the parent's demeaning and becomes the parent's tool in keeping the scapegoat/servant child in line.
The books I've found that contain sections that describe the special meanness and sickness of the narcissistic parent are (for women) When You and Your Mother Can't Be Friends by Victoria Secunda, and Elinor Paysan's The Wizard of Oz and other narcissists. Elinor Payson uses fairy tales to describe narcissistic parenting and her notion of the scapegoat child as Cinderella was very insightful - the child who was good for nothing and did everything. Toxic Parents by Susan Forward is a great book for anyone with an abusive parent, and Beverley Engel had a selfish, neglectful mother and seems to "get it" better than any other therapist, including that sometimes you have to say good-bye to save yourself. I also wrote a description of a narcissistic mother that some people have found helpful. It now has its own website and I have been writing expanded discussions of issues like empathy (22) and the no-win scenario (23) http://harpyschild.googlepages.com/theharpy'schild
One of the things that just knocks me over is how many of us use the same words to describe our experience of our Nparents and their responses to us. I keep seeing these phrases:
not that bad.
unappreciative
emotional vampire
feeling sick
Anyone else have a phrase that keeps cropping up?
I also want to ask: has any of you confronted a narcissistic parent or cut off contact or limited contact and gotten a response from the Nparent along the lines of "I have no idea why you're so upset with me, and besides, I just needed to..." followed by a description that makes it very clear that they DO know what they did, and often with a slam on you? For example, your Nmom stole your credit card info and used it to buy the whole family Christmas presents. When you find out you get furious and tell her you're cancelling the card and she can talk to you again when she's ready to pay you back the full amount. She later contacts you and says "I have no idea why you're so angry with me, and besides, I was broke and I was sure you wouldn't mind my doing something nice for other people."
Chris2
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| 'daughter' |
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Reply with quote | #47 |
I get almost physically ill when I read about what children, and even as the children become adults, have to deal with when they have a narcissist parent. It just boggles my mind. My mom is not narcissist, but she does manipulate, and she does lie when it suits her cause. Then acts all innocent. But she never took it to the level that many of you have describe regarding your mother or father.
Really, it just makes me ill that a parent could be that way to their child, and continue it into their adulthood. And if they were ever told they were narcissist, I am sure they would deny it to the hilt and make it out that YOU are the problem. Right. It is a lose-lose situation. (((hugs))) to all of you. I hope you can escape their clutches, because it's just not right.
'daughter' (beth)
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| Amien |
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Reply with quote | #48 |
Chris2, the most frequent statement I get is "this is the way I am/she is, and you just need to accept it" from n-mom and my sib and dad. Note that I'm in the scapegoat role, sib is the golden child, and dad is the enabler. My sibling's golden child position in family has emotionally stunted her; she has the same immaturity and self-absorbedness as my mother. Interestingly, in her current narcissistic state she so ignores all her children that I don't think any of them will be assigned either the scapegoat or the golden child roles. |
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| chris2 |
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Reply with quote | #49 |
Amien: I've heard variations on "That's the way I am and you need to get used to it" before. It is a declaration of intent not to change. For a narcissist, that explains a lot, because 1) They are extremely immature, so they have successfully resisted growth, maturation and change for a long time and 2) They don't change. Even when change is forced on them in the form of consequences they don't like, they resist it, they bide their time until they can change back or they simply get around the consequences by slightly modifying their behavior such that the results are the same.
I only started to figure out how narcissistic my own mother was when I got older. I would look at my memories of her behavior when I was a child and think "She was MY AGE when she did that" and be shocked at the childishness she exhibited. Narcissists seem to freeze at some age and ever after that's "just the way they are."
Chris2
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| Andy |
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Reply with quote | #50 |
Chris and Amien, I am finally to the point, with my N father, where I just can't care anymore. Writing about it even seems to be a waste of my time, because it will never change and he is who he is. So, to me, the n's saying that they are the way they are, take it or leave it - is doing us a favor. They are directly telling us that they will never change, don't expect it. People tell us who they are all the time, it is when we don't want to accept it, is when it hurts us. Maybe we feel bad for labeling them 'bad' or whatever, I know that is how I felt for a long time. I would get mad at myself for thinking horrible thoughts about my father and in return woudl think "who the heck am I to think the things, I'm not perfect either" Well, that is denial. I am not perfect, but I do know that I do not abuse the ones I love. So, coming to terms with that was the hardest part, but the most significant.
My point is, the N's saying that this is who they are and that they will never change is probably the most honest and important thing they have ever said.
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| Andy |
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Reply with quote | #51 |
Chris, To answer your question about confronting my N parent. Yes, I have done it, when I was naive thinking that honest communication will always help a relationship. I was WRONG. Things turned out so backwards and strange, things happened that I never could have imagined. It blew up in my face, when all I did was talk about REALITY. They did not like reality and I was blamed and punished for many years for bringing it up. It was the hardest time in my life. I suffered greatly and was labeled the black sheep. Nothing good came from it. NADA. If I could do it over again, I would have learned about Narcissism first. Then I would have learned that nothing good comes from confronting a Narcissist. The only thing we can do that is good for the relationship is set boundaries and keep distance.
I thing this is when I learned the important lesson what communication in a healthy relationship really means. It means that one is free to express him/herself without punishment- and one is really listened to in a relationship. The opposite is very unhealthy - and that is what it is with a N.
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| Andy |
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Reply with quote | #52 |
Have to add that there is a great liberation in confronting a N parent(S). It is really good to find that voice that defends and protects oneself from their abuse. But, the consequences are big and one has to be really ready to face them and deal with them. |
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| Lorraine |
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Reply with quote | #53 |
My g/f sent this information to me today..as she has seen this situation with my mother and I..but she has also pointed out that no matter how I have worked at it..I have a daughter who is like her grandmother...I have told them both that I cannot satisfy them and that I will not continue to participate in this behavior and in particular my mother keeps trying and trying..it is hard that things will be fine for a while and then she busts loose..and most recently my daughter got her grandmother involved in this behavior..and then my mother behind my back went to my best friend..who my mother was probably surprised to find out didn't side with her...and told all three of us to grow up and behave... I didn't get mad at my friend because that is what I have tried to have done along..the past is the past...but then my mother will accuse me of abandoning her/not talking to her..and she forgets that she has run me off and I just can't take it..I raised my daughter as a single parent w/o the help of her father and w/o the help of my family..enough is enough and to think that early last year I was going to move in w/my mom to take care of her...hell no that won't happen..but is there anyway to point any of this out to these people and try and get them help..I have been in therapy in the past and take medication for depression and try and keep on balance...and just hide when it becomes all my fault...I am afraid my mom will recognize me on such a site and consider it an "attack" on her and come after me verbally again..I fear her at times... |
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| Amien |
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Reply with quote | #54 |
Lorraine, the anonymity of this site is very helpful - I doubt your n-mom would track you down here because n's don't see anything suspect in their behavior and therefore wouldn't be scanning a "narcissistic parents" thread. Nonetheless, I also am careful not to "leave a trail" for fear of the extreme anger of my n-mom and e-dad for exposing their years of bad behavior.
Also, my n-mom and e-dad have tried to explain to my husband that my "upsettedness" during their episodes of inappropriate or mean-spirited behavior are instance of MY bad behavior since I'm supposedly disrespectful (in their eyes) for not abiding by their wishes and giving them my full obedience. Seems your mom has tried to do same with your friend. Curiously, they've told me that they don't understand why my husband is "no longer close to them" and have accused me of "ruining their relationship" with them. They're emotionally blind to their narcissistic self-absorbedness, not realizing that their bad behavior has caused him to naturally emotionally withdraw from them since they are so damaging.
I'd be thankful to have that understanding friend. I've created a sort of surrogate family from friends to provide me the emotional support so lacking in my own family situation. Welcome.
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| Denise Peterson |
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Reply with quote | #55 |
HUGS TO ALL OF YOU DEALING WITH N PARENTS, IT IS A DIFFICULT AND DESTRUCTIVE WAY OF LIFE. KUDOS THAT SO MANY OF YOU RECOGNIZE IT. I DID NOT FOR MANY YEARS. MY MOM HAS RECENTLY PASSED AT AGE 74 AND I AM HEARTSICK AT HAVING LOST HER. YES THERE WERE MANY MANY DIFFICULT TIMES, PARTICULARLY IN THE PAST 2 YRS THAT SHE LIVED W/HUSB,DAUGHTER (5 YR OLD) AND I. SO WHY DO WE DO IT ? BECAUSE WE LOVE AND RESPECT OURSELVES FAR TOO MUCH NOT TO. AND IF THAT IS THE POSITION WE TAKE, WE WHO WERE RAISED BY SUCH PARENTS ARE SO VERY DETERMINED TO SEE IT THRU TO THE END. WE CANNOT AFFORD TO HAVE IT END WITHOUT KNOWING THAT WE DID OUR VERY BEST. THERE IS COMFORT IN KNOWING THAT YOU TRY TO MAKE THEIR LAST DAYS BETTER/KINDER/SAFER, BY TAKING CARE OF THEM. I CANNOT BELIEVE MY MOM LAID OFF ON THE GUILT TRIPS AND MEAN HURTFUL COMMENTS THE LAST FEW MONTHS, AND LOOKING BACK NOW, I THINK SHE HAD A PRETTY GOOD IDEA THAT HER DAYS WERE GETTING SHORTER, IT IN NO WAY ATONED FOR WHAT SHE HAD PUT ME THRU, IT CERTAINLY DID HELP MAKE THINGS MUCH EASIER THO. I HAVE NO GUILT OVER THE PLACING HER IN THE NH THE LAST 5 WKS, AND THANKFULLY SHE DIDNT TRY AND PLACE ANY. THERE IS HOPE FOR ALL OF YOU WHO ARE STILL GOING THRU THIS ORDEAL. I PRAY THAT TOWARDS THEIR END YOUR N PARENTS WILL ALSO GIVE YOU THE MUCH NEEDED BREAK/BREATHING SPACE AND PEACE. MY MOM AND I ACTUALLY HUGGED AND TOLD EACH OTHER WE LOVED ONE ANOTHER FOR THE PAST FEW MONTHS AS I WOULD LEAVE HER. THAT WAS PRETTY NEW GROUND FOR US. SO DONT GIVE UP OR IN.WE DO GET OUR MIRACLES, SOMETIMES WE JUST DO NOT SEE THEM AS SUCH UNTIL LATER. PEACE AND LOVE IN THIS NEW YEAR, GIVE YOURSELVES A HUG AND A TAKE A DEEP BREATH. THIS TOO SHALL PASS... |
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| merliejo |
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Reply with quote | #56 |
I'm new to narcissism (my MIL and FIL suffer from it. I thought all these years they were just strange jerks. I never knew there was a medical name for it.)
Anyways, here's my question: Is it common for narcissists be unthankful?
I'd be fine to never hear my MIL say 'thank you' for some things we've done for her. But should I just expect her to be ungrateful like that all the time?
Just wondering........
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| Kathy |
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Reply with quote | #57 |
Hi Merliejo,
It seems to me that they (Ns) are never thankful or grateful because in their minds, no matter what you do...it's never enough!
~Kathy~
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| cleofet |
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Reply with quote | #58 |
SO DONT GIVE UP OR IN.WE DO GET OUR MIRACLES, SOMETIMES WE JUST DO NOT SEE THEM AS SUCH UNTIL LATER. PEACE AND LOVE IN THIS NEW YEAR, GIVE YOURSELVES A HUG AND A TAKE A DEEP BREATH. THIS TOO SHALL PASS...
I commend you on sticking it out. I don't think we all are able to do that without losing ourselves completely and our spouse to boot. My Nmom is 84 and has alienated my brother before he died Dec. 10th of 06 and my sister who moved to Georgia 6 month before mom came here and her (moms) own only living brother. Now tells us and everyone else that will listen that she is a prisoner in our home. She came to live with us on an invitation because she was diagnosed with non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma and there was no one left in Philly to help her since she does not talk to her brother. She has been here almost 2 years now. For 2 years she has complained about everything. Most times she won't eat with us and she will not eat what we cook. She complains about everything and says she wants to move back to Phila. (We live in New Orleans). There have been times when she cursed me using the F word at the top of her lungs and my husband and my adult children have heard it. It has gotten so bad that one night about 2 months ago after my husband came home from work she confronted him and said I was a disrespectful daughter and that I did nothing for her but take her to the doctor. She told him I never talk to her and that I have mental problems. He has had it with her. He doesn't want to come home from work (stressful work) to this stressful house. He stays in our bedroom most of the time. I have confronted her about the way she is but of course she says I am the one with problems. She says she just tells it like it is. She is mean and hateful and doesn't care who she hurts. I personally can't take it any more and I have told her so. But then she has told me I can't handle it either so this is nothing new to her because she knows everything. I am waiting to give her her wish to go back to Philadelphia. She wants to buy another house and refuses to go into assisted living because she says she can take care of herself. To save myself and my marriage I say "SO BE IT". I am sorry if I don't live up to other peoples (moms) ideals but this is survival. |
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| michelle with nmom |
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Reply with quote | #59 |
Hey Cleofet:
You are not giving up - you are saving yourself. From the way your nmom sounds, it's hard to believe that you will have any time near her end where you will tearfully hold each other and exchange loving sentiments. More likely, she will be cursing you as she closes her eyes.
Don't let anything deter you - find her a place - temporary if necessary till she finds something in philly - but get her out of your house before you wreck your marriage. Let your hubby take the blame if you need to - just say he says "OUT".
You have done all you can and she has not responded to normal human emotions. You cannot change a malignant narcissist - you can only change the way you respond to them and remove yourself from her presence.
Don't give up on yourself and YOUR life.
michelle with nmom
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| GG |
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Reply with quote | #60 |
My Golden Sib still thinks she and nmom are good friends. GS has never had an independent thought or action and nmom threatens her not to dare try. Who needs enemies with friends like that?! GS has spent her entire life denying that nmom is N, regardless of how blatantly obvious the n behavior is.
As Chris2 said it does become very clear when you get older and recall the n's behavior when they were the age you are now. My mother at my age (40s) acted like a spoiled teenager.
My nmom reminds me of Lucy in the old I Love Lucy show. She was/is always funny and the life of the party. Everybody loves Lucy. When things went bad, aka her not getting her way, she would cry in a dramatic way actually wailing "BOO-HOOooo" and her voice getting child-like. She still does that. It is so creepy.
There is a freedom in the understanding of parental narcissism in that it was not you, but them that caused all the turmoil. Golden sib has no clue or just gives lip service to nmom being a normal person. GS was not spared, but is a greater victim than I, the scapegoat.
Years ago some cousins detached from the family and were portrayed as terrible people but I was never told anything they did wrong except move. I believed they must have been bad. I never knew them as I was much younger and the family isn't close but now I suspect these people were scapegoated and were just doing what they had to do for self-preservation. I now know several aunts/uncles were N. One of the long lost cousins recently contacted nmom, who blew him off. She said he made his choice years ago, but she can't come up with anything really bad or wrong he ever did. It would be interesting to talk to those lost relatives myself, I suspect they would have familiar stories. It would be nice to know there are others who understand, as all of my other cousins who stuck around are Golden ones.
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