| chris2 |
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Reply with quote | #61 |
Merliejo;
There is actually a paper on narcissists in general, by a therapist titled "The denial of remorse and gratitude!"
My Nmom was ungrateful too, because she regarded everything done for her as her due. Narcissists are self-*. Self-seeking, self-justifying, self-serving, self-absorbed, selfish, self... No matter what someone else does, it is never enough.
Chris2
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| BJ |
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Reply with quote | #63 |
Hello to Everyone...
I used to think that it was a relief that I was not the only person that had a n-mom but, after reading so many comments on this site, it just makes me so sad that there are so many that have to deal with someone with this disorder. I have tried (and honestly keep trying) to find some "other" explanation for my mom acting the way that she does because it is really painful to bring myself to the full realization that I will NEVER have a "normal" relationship with her....not one that really benefits either one of us. I posted before looking for anyone with a parent having NPH (normal pressure hydrocephalis) which my mom has had for a while now. Like I said, I keep trying to come up with explanations for her n-ways not wanting to accept the reality of the situation that you all point out. Since my mom has always acted the way she does, the NPH is not really the cause of her heartless actions. What makes this so very difficult is trying to help make her last years more comfortable and failing miserably. I have tried to set boundaries - something that is mentioned a great deal but, when it comes time to see her again, she makes me pay. It is emotionally exhausting to spend even an hour with her and I feel sick to my stomach when it comes time for me to make that phone call to her. I tried to turn it back to her by asking her to please call me when she feels up to talking but she always tells me that it is easier for me to call her - whatever that means (I still haven't figured that one out).
Amien & GG - you talk about the golden sib and the enabler. It took till a year after my father's death to realize how much of an enabler he was in regard to my mom and his own mother. And my oldest brother is the golden sib. He absolutely can do no wrong in her eyes even though he is an alcoholic, drug user, had several failed marriages and even been in prison. None of these thing apply to me but I am viewed as the disrespectful child and the one that constantly "screws" up in her eyes. My brother was also viewed as "perfect" by my grandmother and she hated me. My mom used to let her babysit me and my youngest brother when we were little. I used to beg my mom not to take me there because of the abuse that my grandmother put me through but off to grandmas we went every summer because both of my parents had to work. I recently mentioned asked my mom why she continued to take me there because she knew fully well what my grandmother was capable of and she told me - what else was I supposed to do because we couldn't afford better child care at that time. She also tells me that I should just forget about the abuse because that was so long ago. For me to explain to her that abuse in childhood does not "just go away" is so much a waste of my breath. She was really angry when she said to me (not really asking me) "Well, what would you have done". I preceded to tell her that I would have been in the unemployment line because I would not have let my children knowingly be abused. She simply replied with the statement "Well, how did you get to be so perfect?" Then she changed the subject because she had gotten the last word in. I know that I am simply waiting for that apology that will NEVER come. I continue trying which is stupid on my part, I know.
My husband and both my children have totally cut her out of their lives. So has my other brother and both his sons. Why is it that she doesn't realize that SHE IS THE PROBLEM?? In any conversation, she will tell me that my brother (who cut her off) is a liar and doesn't pay his bills but she will ask about him. If she thinks he is bad (which is not true), why does she ask about him?
I guess as long as she is alive I will continue to try to find some excuse for her behavior. I guess that is my defense mechanism. I last saw her on Christmas Eve so, in her mind, it will have been way too long since I contacted her - even though she hasn't called me. I am in for quite a tongue lashing when I do get up the mental energy to call her.
Thanks to all of you for posting your experiences and thanks for listening to the vents.
BJ
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| 'daughter' |
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Reply with quote | #64 |
BJ -- I wouldn't call her. Plain and simple. She needs to grow up.
Ask yourself: Do I need this in my life??
If you were trying to keep up some type of relationship with your mother for the sake of her grandchildren (your children) that would be different.
She will never comprehend that she is the problem. Never.
Feel free to vent anytime. (((hugs)))
'daughter' (beth)
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| chris2 |
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Reply with quote | #65 |
BJ;
You CAN set boundaries with a narcissistic parent, but there are some big hurdles. First of all, you have to face your fear of them, because defending your boundaries means triggering your mother's rage, knowing that she won't scruple to transcend the limits of common decency in her vengefulness and determination to keep you under control. Second, the boundary setting has to imply that you will abandon them if they don't behave better, because that's the only thing they fear. Third, getting their sick emotional feeds is the narcissist's chief concern in life and something they work on all the time. You may come up with a means of stopping your mother from her abusiveness short term, but long-term she'll think of something new to get around your limits, and the abusive narcissistic feeding will start up again.
I had a friend who did push back her father. She married a man of a different race which infuriated him. Every time he vented on her about her marriage she said "I'm not going to let you talk to me in this disrespectful way" and hung up. If he called back, she hung up after the first rude word. If he called again, she didn't answer. That's what I mean by implying that you are going to abandon the narcissist. My friend let her father know that she was willing not to talk to him if he was abusive. From not-talking-to-him NOW to not-talking-to-him EVER is not that far, and he knew that with the eerie sensitivity of the narcissist. Another way of abandoning them is to limit contact when they behave badly. My mother pulled a godawful narcissistic drama on me one day when she figured she needed a feed, and I told her I needed some time away from her and that I wasn't going to contact her for a while. When I finally broke silence after six months she was on her absolutely best behavior. For a while. One of the previous posters said she told her mother she was going to put the mother in a home, after which her mother suddenly thought the condo she had previously denigrated was just fine. That's a perfect example of threatening a narcissist with abandonment.
You can also simply stop reacting to a particular type of abuse. You can turn it away with laughter, a very powerful weapon, or with obvious boredom, or walk away when she wants an audience for a scene. My nmom loved to put on pityfests where she cried and wailed for hours about how hard she had it and how nobody loved her (i.e., I was an unloving child, seeing as I was the one being told "nobody" loved her). I learned to recognize when one of these was going to start and walk away. That sounds easy and obvious but it wasn't. Walking away meant that I ALWAYS had to be in the position to keep going or the thwarted drama would turn into a rage. That meant I could never allow her to drive me anywhere, I could never stay at her house, and I always had to be on the lookout for traps that would have forced me to stick around. Restaurants were a minefield; she would wait until the entrees were ordered and start a drama. I had to make sure we only went to busy restaurants with closely spaced tables so her crying would be overheard. There always had to be a locked door and a hallway between my bedroom and her, or just like a vampire, she'd be scratching on the door to be let in, and squatting on my bed for a feed. There's nothing like having to get out of bed, get dressed and drive away at 11 at night to avoid being an emotional meal for a sadist. It took me quite a while to locate and block off all the avenues she so lovingly constructed to gain unrestricted access to my emotions.
After a few tries, she gave up the pityfests. And within a year, she had a new, even more airtight drama, in which she called me and demanded that I rush over RIGHT AWAY for she was horribly ill!
And then I did what all of us eventually seem to: I cut contact, because I realized that no matter what I did, I couldn't keep up with her. Her drive to make me hurt and feed off that pain was total. I couldn't spend my whole life on self-defense. And so I did what abused children typically do: I stopped talking to her, changed my phone number and tossed her letters in the trash. It was hard and it hurt, but it was the right thing to do. I had no right to subject my husband to the ongoing pain she caused in me and thereby in our marriage. I had an obligation not to enable her to do evil. I had an obligation to my bewildered siblings to be a better example of self-respecting behavior, so that they, too, could turn away from her abuse, and, more importantly, protect their own children from her abuse. I finally found the courage to do the unthinkable, to cut contact with my mother. Once they saw me do the unthinkable, it became thinkable, and they too started to distance themselves. With distance you will also start to understand how wrong her behavior is, and you will gain insight into her behavior and its incredible sickness and into the ways that her behavior has injured and damaged you. That's when you can start to heal.
Your mother wants YOU to call HER because it is a symbol of her control over you, and symbols are extremely important to narcissists, who use them to manipulate their victims. Like the birthday/Mother's Day/holiday cards that so many of us continue to send even though we no longer talk to our parents in any other way, your dutiful phone calls are a contract. They mean that her treatment of you wasn't "that bad." They mean that you'll never abandon her, even though she knows she tormented you for enjoyment, and she deserves to be abandoned. They say "You are my mother, and no matter how badly you treated me, that is sacred, so you can continue to treat me as badly as you want." It is also the ultimate in brutality. It's not enough for her to abuse you. Like all the most sadistic abusers, she wants you to ask for it.
When I read your post I thought "Is this my long-lost sister?" because what you describe, the emotional exhaustion, the feeling sick when you have to call her, is exactly how I used to feel. Nmoms need to evoke painful emotions in their children, off which they "feed." There isn't just one way they do this...they have lots of different ways, but the feeds are always followed by a sick sense of violation. Nmoms are the emotional equivalent of child molesters. They are emotional rapists.
Do you feel any sense of relief when your phone call is over, then feel an increase in tension until you call her or she calls you again? I ask because I always had that feeling wrt nmom, and I've read that battered women go through the same kind of cycle.
Be well
Chris2
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| BJ |
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Reply with quote | #66 |
Thanks Beth and Chris for your support and input. I just can't believe that I am still trying, at my age, to get a true "acceptance" from her for the person that I am. I have 3 brothers and always felt I had to be the "good" girl...which I have been. But, what she has really always wanted is a little carbon copy of herself. So, even though things I have done in my life are of a positive nature, if they are not what she would ever do (and, she really has never had any kind of life), she always views them as bad things. I remember when I decided to take a job in another city about 30 miles from where I lived. It was a high-paying, high-profile position but when I told her about it she replied - "I thought you had more sense than that." I couldn't believe what I was hearing? The only thing that she was thinking about was the fact that I would be further away from her thus, less daily contact. She would not longer be able to control me on a daily basis because I simply would not have the time.
Chris - yes, I do feel a little sense of relief because I feel I have fulfilled an obligation - plain and simple. I don't ever contact her because I love her or because I really want to - how sad is that! That gives me tremendous guilt. And yes, then the cycle continues and I feel a lot of stress until the next call. I know that if she does end up calling me (and I have no doubt that she eventually will), it will be under the pretense that she is ill or in need of something. She has never in her life called me just to say that she wanted to talk to me or see how I was doing...God forbid she would ever act like a mature adult. And now that I am getting older, I have had a few health issues creep up on me (nothing major, thank goodness) and when I am honest about them with her, she looks at me like I have 2 heads! You look fine to me she always tells me and I'm sure that the doctor doesn't know what he is talking about. But, in the next breath, she is complaining because her finger hurts. I have heard that story about her finger hurting for the past 2 years....no lie! I tell her she is lucky not to have Rheumatoid Arthritis like my husband's brother but she just goes back to HER finger that hurts. No compassion for anyone else! Again, thanks for your input. It is always good to hear someone else's view of the situation especially when you have been through similar experiences. Those suggestions and support are so important!
Have a good day!
BJ
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| Frau Leigh |
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Reply with quote | #67 |
Oh this subject is always on my front burner because I have a n-mum too. As soon as she figured out what buttons people came with she pushed the doorbell until it fried!
I had no choice but to grow up feisty & self-reliant because neither of my parents seemed to realize they had a child in the house. Everything revolved around Bubbe or Morgan's drinking. In many ways I'm glad I took this year off to take care of her because I've found out so much about my childhood. Many many questions were answered. Most of answers were very stupid but at least I could pack a lot of emotional baggage away for good.
When I was 9 yrs old, in a blind drunken rage my father tried to attack me. If you read my "coal for Christmas" post you pretty much figured out I despised him from the first time I met him. Anyway, I ran into the kitchen & grabbed a big knife & told him I had no problem defending myself. I was 9 for gawd sakes!! Where was Bubbe?? As usual, in bed, depressed. She was always depressed. The first 3 months we were in America she was in hospital at Ft. Meade where they gave her shock treatments. Without any guilt at all I can honestly say the psychiatrist should have pumped up the voltage to maximum!!! (I was left alone for 3 months all day long & at night when Morgan went to the NCO club to sooth over his disappointment at the woman he married.)
I stopped talking to my father when I was 9 years old & Bubbe could never understand why. She didn't believe me. She didn't want to because that would mean she'd have to clean up her own life. 40 yrs later she couldn't understand why I didn't want to say goodbye to him on his death bed!!! Over the years I had gotten a good many different answers from her regarding that incident. Until, finally, 5 yrs ago she admitted she hadn't slept with her own husband for 2 years because she didn't want to get pregnant!!! And she couldn't figure out why the man was drinking himself to death & why he'd attack his own daughter???? Of course she didn't want anymore children -- she never wanted the one she already had & she made that perfectly clear.
Now I just look at her as this pathetic, sad & lonely distant relative. There is no emotional connection at all.
I spent a good many years becoming the fixer, the mum to her, the hard worker & the good daughter. Hey I was once the immigrant taunted for her accent but I went to work in the White House for 4 years too. Nothing impressed her but herself!! Even in her foggy Alzheimer's state of mind the only thing still important to her is herself!! How sad.
Thank goodness I'm nothing like her & thank goodness my grand-mother raised me for first 7 yrs of my life.
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| Madalyn |
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Reply with quote | #68 |
So many sad stories on here, how we've all been the good daughter while putting our needs and feelings aside. N personalities can drain our life away. I have an N mom and 2 N brothers. I can so relate to the statement "she only wants a carbon copy of herself" I'm so sick, sick, of my mom telling everyone "this is my daughter but she's nothing like me" well thank GOD for that She makes comments on how I'm to quiet, so shy...well to be like her or 2 of my 3 brothers would be the worst thing possible!!!
I'm a humble person, I don't brag..I keep my joys and sorrows to myself. They are so self-absorbed esp my one brother. He boasts all the time. I get so sick of it it actually makes me ill! I have 2 grown children, and now a grandaughter. He has 2 sons, and they are 14 and 8. He calls us non-stop about sports they play in, expecting us to come. The kicker is 2 years ago my daughter got married, this brother did not come, congradulate her or even buy a 2 dollar card, in no way did he even acknowledge her wedding but we get calls about his sons all the time.
I have a push-over husband, he does whatever anyone asks Now this brother is getting remarried a second time (what a mess of a first marriage) and it makes me so angry that I'm expected to go to this wedding. I was hurt terribly by his totally ignoring my daughters wedding. Hubby says.... and in ways I do agree, that to not go is exhibiting the same behavior he did and not fair to his 2 sons They would see there aunt (and I do love these boys) being disrespectful to them. I babysat those boys many many days till they went to school.
Anyway back to the main topic N people(I got a bit off track) They can't see beyond their needs..ME, ME, ME and even to those they should love the most they don't see how they hurt us or how for the rest of our lives we resent the crap. quote from BJ "she has never once in her life called me to say she wanted to talk to me or see how I was doing" Isnt this just like a knife to the heart! My moms the same. If I get an email or call it begins "well I thought I'd let you know how we are" meaning dear step-dad who shes devoted her life to! Never went shopping with me, took my children anywhere when they were little, never went out to eat with me and if by chance I'd ask her to lunch...well she bragged to everyone she saw "my daughter took me to lunch" LOOK AT ME!!!! so full of herself and her needs. This brother of mine is the carbon copy of her. They are very messed up people, and who knows why N's become this way..some would say neglect as a child. She had a older acholholic mother and growing up I never thought my mom showed good parenting skills, even at age 10 or 11 I sensed this isnt the way a mom behaves So many of us are the "fixers" and to this day I feel I need to meet all their approval. I'm working hard on ending these feelings but events that pop up makes it rear its ugly head. Then you just sit, ask why and cry
I havnt posted in awhile. I read everyday and my heart goes out to everyone on all the threads. Caretaking is so very draining, and I wonder everyday how I'll do it esp with a mom who never made time for me, it weighs on my mind and I know I will resent it deeply. Hopefully she'll stay strong and capable but the one thing I do know is she won't ever be able to live with me. The hurt would be upfront everyday I looked at her. I'll do my best, help her, but they'll always be the big question I'll want to ask, "why didn't you want to do things with me, your only daughter"?????
Blessings to all, my heart breaks reading your stories. We can share our hurts and maybe heal in some small way.
Madalyn
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| Madalyn |
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Reply with quote | #69 |
Sorry for the rant..I wont be back..I needed a shoulder and some input. I dont feel welcome here. |
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| BJ |
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Reply with quote | #71 |
Madalyn....
Don't know if you will see this or not but, I don't understand your last post?? Are you upset because no one posted a reply within a certain period of time? Obviously that is the case but you have to understand that it may be a busy day for people that would be interested in this particular topic (not everyone - thank goodness - has n-people in their lives). Myself, I have been packing at the local USO all day and just got home. My son was just deployed in December to Iraq so I really like to go and help out as often as I can - makes me feel like I am doing something to help the guys/gals over there with my son.
Actually, I was going to say that your situation is much like mine. Aside from my mom, I also have 2 n-brothers out of the 3 brothers I have. I also have a push-over husband who is ready to please everyone - all the time! Sometimes that can be a little aggravating because the support may not be quite what you need.
I am sorry that you felt ignored. Sounds like you are just having a really bad day. I hope that you will feel free to come back and join in again.
Hugs to you
BJ
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| Tammy |
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Reply with quote | #72 |
in reading your post, i did not see a question for help. it looked like you wanted to vent. maybe you are having a bad day?
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| Catherine |
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Reply with quote | #73 |
I haven't come to this site for some time and it has been ages since I have posted but I needed to today. Just one of those days... I couldn't find this thread (which I find the most that I can relate to) and when I finally did I saw Madalyn's posts.
Madalyn, I hope you are still coming and I wish you would post again because you have no idea how much it helps others even when they don't post. I am sorry for that but I know in my situation I am "stuck"...
I had my father living with us for 3 years and I almost committed suicide over it. 1 1/2 years ago we moved out of our home and moved 1,000 miles away leaving him there. 7 months ago he moved out and I haven't had any contact with him or my sibs. I am "stuck" because I can't let my thoughts or feelings go... I know that I did the best (nothing was ever good enough) that I could under the circumstances. They have hurt me more than they will ever know and I did what I could to save myself and my marriage.
Madalyn, if you are still there please come back... for 1 I need to talk, listen and heal and I can only do that with sharing.
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| BJ |
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Reply with quote | #74 |
Hi Catherine....
I don't post often either because, unfortunately, this IS the thread that I most relate to. I see that certain kind of dispare in your writing that children of Ns feel. It is sad that most of us can not get over the "thoughts or feelings". Maybe because we are normal dispite the crap dealt out to us. Seems to be the norm.....you do the very best you can and you are always the one to be shunned. I feel so sorry for anyone who feels so very bad because I know what I feel like.
Glad you posted Catherine. And you are right, sharing is a way of healing. I think the best we can do for our sanity anyway. Sounds like you are having a really bad day like Madalyn was. Hope it gets a little easier for you.
Hugs...
BJ
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| Catherine |
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Reply with quote | #75 |
Thanks for the reply BJ.
I am doing so much better since I cut my ties but once in awhile I do have a bad day... and I want to reach out but then I have to remind myself that it will only hurt me again like it has before. I wish it could be different but I know it can't be. It is hard to let go because we grew up with this craziness and it is what we are use to.
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