| Mike Gamble, Publisher |
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Reply with quote | #1 |
The New York Times recently published a very important article for family caregivers whose parent(s) fit the description in the Subject line above. The article is titled:
A companion article includes more than 344 comments so far. It is titled:
To read either article, simple click on its title.
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| | | Alinka |
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Reply with quote | #2 |
Thank you, Mike.
At age 50 (!) I still struggle with the legacy of two toxic parents. Wishing it was different certainly does not make it so. Your site has been very important to me over the last year and a half. It is a part of my "wellness recovery action plan" (a term and concept I learned here from another poster).
I am now reading the comments from your link. What poignant, hopeful, determined, informative and sad contributions.
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| | | ~OK~ |
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Reply with quote | #3 |
Hi Mike,
A big thanks from me also! I too, had a pair of toxic parents.
Even though they are gone, I also struggle with the memories they left behind!
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| | | Sarah |
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Reply with quote | #4 |
Thanks Mike
One interesting bit for me that popped out in comment 175:
Interestingly, I sought out a life without childbearing. Early on, I just didn’t value children (never played with dolls). A stepchild raised outside my home, but close nonetheless opened me to the realization that this “choice” of mine was merely the internalization of my parent’s message to me: children don’t count. Thank heavens I didn’t have children. Who knows what pain my choice saved others?
Lightbulb moment for me. I never played with those baby dolls, despite being bought them. I remember clearly thinking they were irritating - having to be fed and changed. I had better things to do. I could only have been around 5-7 years old. What child of that age thinks like that???
I refused to babysit (even now) and decided not to have children at around 16. I'm now 36 and until I read that comment never understood where this attitude towards children came from.
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| | | Prodigal |
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Reply with quote | #5 |
Thank you from the bottom of my heart for posting this article, Mike. As the caregiver for a very difficult elderly parent, I sometimes feel like I am out of the mainstream next to those caring for parents with whom the caregivers have enjoyed good relationships in the past. But I know now that I'm not the only one and that helps. Good article and the comments are a good source of validation too.
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| | | sue |
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Reply with quote | #6 |
Thanks for the links, Mike.
I'm still trying to understand my mother. I think she meant well. It just seems that she was always angry at me, at the world, I don't know. I'm still not sure she rises to the narcissist level although she certainly had some narcissistic traits. I don't think she was purposely nasty to me, but she believed she could say anything, no matter how hurtful, because, "I'm your mother."
Like Sarah, I also consciously decided not to have kids. My whole adult life has been geared towards having a peaceful life. I figured that if I had kids, I'd just be re-running the whole negative thing from the other side. Sometimes, I wish I had wanted them, but I really didn't. It was the right decision for me.
I spent as little time with my mother as my guilt would let me. My mother died in Feb. I'm still wrestling with the guilt.
sue
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| | | olivia |
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Reply with quote | #7 |
Thanks so much, Mike.
Sarah and Sue: I read a lot of the replies to the article, but must have missed that one. You really hit a chord with me. I never played with baby dolls, and my husband and I are childless. While my situation was not quite as dire as yours, I think that message got through to me in a subtle fashion. You've given me a lot to think about.
I think I got the message early that children were a burden on my mother, even though she was not a monster, and wanted me in her life. My two older brothers got the same message, but one brother later had a son (unplanned), but wanted no other children My husband and I have struggled with the choice whether to have children or not, but the burden of caregiving 'Samwise's' mother ruled kids out for us, and was the predominant factor in our choice.
I regret it now, but know our situation precludes having children. I'm going through 'the change' now, and I sometimes feel very hollow and miss the 'could have been'. Like an important part of me is forever gone. Samwise and I have talked about adopting or having foster kids. Yes, I do wonder if I would be a toxic parent. But I hope that if I choose to have a foster child in my life, I can not make mistakes I experienced, or saw in other families.
O.
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| | | Sarah |
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Reply with quote | #8 |
Olivia - I think because you are so self-aware chances are you will be a good parent and not perpetuate the cycle.
I went to bed with a migraine last night thinking about all this. I now have a terrible thought going my head. I married a man who had a wonderful childhood, but decided not to have children after watching other friends and family struggle to bring up their kids. He also loves having lots of free time. If my stance on children has been internalised because of my Nfather, now I am becoming more aware of his toxic influence and am beginning to change, my desire to to remain childless may change also. Which puts me into direct conflict with my husband.
At 48 he has never wanted kids. If I change my mind - and it's a big if - it threatens the stability of my marriage, which is my biggest source of comfort and joy.
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| | | 'daughter'(beth) |
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Reply with quote | #9 |
too toxic to tolerate... oh dear.
I better not read that article (yet). I may not return to Mom's! 
I do not need even more ammunition in my mind. My helping Mom is teetering on the brink as it is.
And my mom is not as bad as some of the parents that have been described on here. I cannot imagine, how many keep persevering and hanging in there, I really cannot.
There has been a lot of lip service given lately to "respect" and "empathy" - for an elderly. Well, in my mind, respect and empathy are earned, not just automatically given because a person is elderly and having health issues. (disclaimer, I am not speaking of people who have dementia, although if they were nasty their whole lives, it is certainly very hard to distinguish between their nasty selves and the disease itself - dementia is not a get out of jail free card, either).
beth
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| | | PhoenixGirl |
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Reply with quote | #10 |
Thanks for posting this. I am in a minority in that I am someone who cut ties with an abusive/toxic parent. I was around 30 years old when I did this. I feel it was something I had to do and now, almost 10 years later, I still do not regret my decision. I have yet to meet someone in real life who has ever done this, and even on internet forums its hard to find. I guess this speaks to the rarity of people actually cutting ties with a parent.
I don't know what my mother will do when she gets older. She will have to turn to my other siblings for help.
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| | | gracenotes |
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Reply with quote | #11 |
Hello Mike,
Thanks for posting this! It certainly is an option. Looking back, my father was a very toxic alcoholic parent who died when he was 60. He actually was a good father when I was a child, but turned into an abusive "monster" by the time I reached adolescence. But, what I did in adolescence and as a very young adult was essentially cut my ties with him. I moved away, stopped talking with him, and when he died (I was 20) and my mother told me, I remember saying, "good, well, at least he cannot hurt me anymore."
Cutting ties may be the best option for some. I does not take away what happened in the past, although therapy can help with that, but it does ensure that one will no longer be the target of awful abuse behavior directed at them. I think, in many case, it is worth doing this if nothing else is really working. And, delving into self-awareness and/or therapy is essential too, lest you attract the same kind of relationship like your abusive parent.
This summer, for the first time since he died, over 35 years, I visited his gravesite. I thought what a pathetic person he turned into as he aged. I doubt if anyone ever visited his grave before. Not my mother either. We (including someone else who knew him) kind of gave reference to what a Son of a B he was by the end of his rather short life. I have gone through a long, long healing process on the emotional and spiritual level about my father. Although there were good times, and I was daddy's little girl, did feel loved by him in the beginning, and I can understand, for the most, his deep frustrations, have made peace with forgiveness, there really seems to be no excuse for him treating me the way he did. And no one there that day disagreed with me at the gravesite that he was a Son of a B.
And, Olivia, because of your experiences and your wisdom, I think you would be such a wonderful parent. It has been my life experience that people I know who have been severely abused and/or have or had N parents make some of the best parents and grandparents. I think this is because these kinds of experiences cause us to dig deep, question ourselves, re-invent ourselves, and be resilient.
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| | | Dustygirl01 |
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Reply with quote | #12 |
I am so fortunate that my counselor totally "gets" narcissism and narc. parents. She suggested instilling boundaries on my NF as an option. She had another client who chose to do this with her mother. I said ABSOLUTELY NOT...I'm going no contact. There was no way I was willing or able to go limited contact with my NF. My counselor totally accepted what I wanted to do, and worked with me through a lot of "what if" scenarios. What if he calls. What if he pulls up my driveway, whether or not I was going to have contact with my goldenbrother (no) and how I felt about this (fine). I spent most of my counseling sessions just going over notes that I made from books that I read on narcissism that really hit home with me. I told her a lot of things that happened during my childhood. I cried every session. I had to get it out.
I can think of nothing worse than someone going to a counselor or therapist who doesn't understand narcissism and thinks they're just complaining about their childhood and exaggerating things.
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| | | tireddaughter |
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Reply with quote | #13 |
What an interesting article. I need to read through more of the replies, but I am interested to know how many toxic parents are worse for some of their kids but not others? In my case, I think my mother genuinely loves all of her children and really wasn't aware of what she was doing, but she is hyper-critical of my oldest sister to this day, and babied my brother all of his life to the point that I think he's emotionally crippled; always expecting everyone to give, give, give, to him, and honestly would have trouble with getting through daily life if his wife didn't take care of a lot of really basic tasks for him. My other sister and I escaped with less baggage than they did; her relationship with us is almost normal.
My mother was the oldest daughter and had a younger brother who died when he was 12, and I think she almost recreated the relationship with our oldest sister and brother that her mother had with them. Her mother has been dead for 30 years, but she still goes on and on about her childhood, how she had to do so many chores and he didn't have to do anything. It's really sad listening to her just sitting and stewing in anger over things that happened 70 years ago. I guess I should be grateful that my relationship with her was okay. I worry about my oldest sister and brother, though.
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| | | gracenotes 4 Dusty&all |
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Reply with quote | #14 |
Really, I cannot think of much worse than going to a therapist, discussing an N relationship, and finding out the therapist never understood Narcissism anyway. This actually happened to me a long long time ago after the breakup with a fiance who probably was N or sociopathic. Definitely had a personality disorder. After my heart was torn out, I went to this therapist and talked about all the nutso things he did, like standing outside my door and whispering "sicko, sicko", his threatening to put me in three-day psych confinement and trying to break down the door to my apartment, hangup calls, using my remaining friendships as ammunition to alienate them from me, etc. etc. It turned out that my therapist started to question me about my sanity. Even asked me if I was "high" on drugs during sessions. Basically told me she did not believe me. After my trust of anyone else has pretty much eroded, I had to dump the therapist and deal with that.
To this day, I thank the universe for an article I found in an old Cosmopolitan magazine from the early 80's called The Cruel Lover that explained personality disorders like N's and how they operate in the world. Totally opened my eyes. Somewhere I still have that precious article. That article meant more to me than any clueless therapist.
What I have learned, when it comes to Narcissists, Psychopaths, and other toxic relationships, whether with significant others, parents, friends, or even on a board like this, is to always have good boundaries until your are sure the other party "gets" it. A person "gets" it or they do not. If they "get" it, great! If someone does not "get" it, or you question if they do, do not even try to spend your time convincing them. They will minimize your pain, label abuse as trivial, or even, as the therapist did, erroneously decide you are the crazy, toxic person who is making up crazy stuff. Sure, telling someone your ex is whispering "sicko, sicko" in the hallway of your apartment building is nutso behavior, but if someone really understands N behavior, they will understand this for what it is. Other people will never understand and it will always be difficult to convince them otherwise.
Just a word to the wise to keep good boundaries and choose your support system carefuly.
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| | | Dustygirl01 |
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Reply with quote | #15 |
You are so right. I'd done a lot of research on my own...pegged my NF as a narc., and KNEW what he was. I told my counselor what I believed he was, and she totally agreed. Only two of my friends knew that I'd gone no contact with my NF and family almost a year ago. Just recently, like two weeks ago, I told my very good friend of 25 years and yesterday I told another very good friend whom I've been close with for almost 20 years. I was just "leary" of telling people...even my most trusted friends. When I told them, they said how sorry they were that I had to go through that, and totally supported me. I knew they would, but...there's always that hesitation when you tell someone.
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