| Dee |
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Reply with quote | #16 |
I wish you luck with whatever you decide to do, but I think that for your own protection, you should printout and bring a copy of that email from your brother, just in case there is any sort of confrontation. Hopefully, you won't need it, but if your brother is lying about what your mother says, she will see it. |
| | | Janice |
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Reply with quote | #17 |
Just reading this made my blood boil! Pardon me, but your brother is an idiot, and an uncaring one at that. Does he not realize that your Mom is 81 years old?? You simply cannot compare an 81 yr old with a 60 year old.
Personally I wouldn't eat ANYTHING prepared in an unsanitary kitchen. My husband and I learned this lesson the hard way one Christmas day at his Moms house. Nothing like a nice case of food poisoning to wrap up your holidays, believe me!
If it were me, I'd go either Thanksgiving or New Years and let nasty brother go Christmas. I hope he gets ptomaine.
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| | | Prodigal |
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Reply with quote | #18 |
We've had this dilemma several times in our family -- first with an elderly grandmother and later a couple of elderly aunts who were used to being the big family cooks and hostesses and "in charge" of everything. They were all deep in denial and determined to retain control. And so there were the continual fights between the relatives at our family events who wanted to pretend everything was OK when these ladies in their 80s were killing themselves cooking and waiting on everyone ... and the other relatives who felt terrible about these failing little old ladies and were also gagging at the completely unsanitary conditions in the kitchens and bathrooms. It's a mess, to be sure.
My grandmother was particularly touchy about anyone cleaning but her so we had this bizarre backup system. The first relative to arrive at her house would hide a supply of paper cups, paper towels and dish soap under the bathroom sink. So when, for instance, grannie gave you a tall glass of mint tea in a suspiciously grimy looking receptacle, you would wait until she wasn't looking, sneak into the bathroom, pour your tea into a paper cup, wash the glass out with hot water and soap, pour your tea back in and sneak back to the living room. One of my cousins got to be an expert at stealth scrubbing a couple dishes or one section of the countertop at a time whenever my grandmother left the kitchen. It was hard to eat meals at these ladies' homes without a legitimate fear of food poisoning. In fact, one my elderly aunts did eventually (and accidentally, we hope) kill her husband with food that was either contaminated or spoiled.
Interesting web site:
I would say, pq, that you and your brother simply have a different way of coping with your mother's self destructive behaviors ... except for the fact that your letter was rational and neutral and fair minded whereas your brother's reply was inflammatory and insulting and egotistical. Sorry if I'm overstepping, but he comes across as an real jerk. I don't know what I would do if I were you about Christmas. One one hand, your mother has a right to destroy herself if she is determined to do so, however much that pains you. But she doesn't have a right to make you or your family sick, or worse. You have my sympathies.
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| | | Saturngoddess |
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Reply with quote | #19 |
He's an idiot. Really. That letter sounds EXACTLY like one I received from my SIL telling me what I had to do.
He's obviously not thinking at all. She's 81!!! not 40, 50 or 60. 81!! She has another person to look after. But you know that he really doesn't care - he only see's what he wants to see.
On the cleaning thing - I'm siding with you, but I want to relate a similar experience we had. We (DH, I and MIL) hire a cleaning lady to come in 2 x a month. She does a halfway job cleaning (that's another story). Anyway, when my BIL showed up once with his wife, her mother came also. She used to clean hotel rooms - she proceeded to try to clean my MIL's bathroom (which really wasn't dirty).
Can you imagine how mortified my MIL was? What does that say? I tried to explain it to my SIL, but she didn't understand. I felt that they were trying to undermine us - even the SIL I don't like didn't understand what they heck they were trying to do.
Again - I am NOT saying this is the same situation. Your mother has NO help. She needs someone to come in and clean - and hell, I wouldn't eat in that kitchen either. That's just unsanitary.
So I can kind of see where he is coming from - BUT. He's not willing to see the situation the way it is. He's too lazy himself, so God forbid he help out his mother.
I'd show the email to mom and get it straight from her. And I wouldn't make the roast beef - what a turd - he isn't contributing anything but he wants YOU to make something. Forget that.
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| | | Prodigal |
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Reply with quote | #20 |
p.s. I too thought it was patently ridiculous for your brother to compare himself and his wife -- significantly younger, healthier people -- with your elderly fragile mother. I guess he's incapable of looking at his mother with comprehension and compassion for her age and living situation. Talk about arrested adolescence! |
| | | Vic |
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Reply with quote | #21 |
Wow, your brother really doesn't see the situation clearly at all. Unfortunately, people like that are impossible to convince, so don't waste any more breath trying. I was so impressed by your logical, calm, very persuasive letter, and it sounded like he skimmed over it because his reply didn't really address your points, but brought up lots of "old business" that he apparently can't let go of. I'm so sorry. I'm sure it felt like a punch in the gut.
I think 2nd kathy suggested that you come at another time to celebrate the holiday with your mom and dad. I would certainly consider it at this point. There is no way you are going to have a nice holiday weekend with your brother and his wife there, so pick another weekend when your brother can't come, and spend it with your mother and father. Make it seem like a last minute thing so your mother doesn't have time to get all worked up or exhaust herself in preparations. (This has worked well with my mom who has some anxiety issues.)
Christmas is supposed to be a time to show love and caring, but if you will be prevented from doing that because of your brother, then try to go another time when you can.
Also, it's nice to see Prodigal is back!
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| | | sierraseven |
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Reply with quote | #22 |
I really, really hate to use any psycho-babble buzzwords, but in this case - it seems like your mom might be what is termed passive-aggressive, or someone who wants to avoid conflict - she's definitely telling you and your brother different things. I always feel very annoyed when I find out someone has (apparently) agreed with me, then told someone else a totally different story - I worked with someone like that for years; he told people whatever they wanted to hear, to avoid having a face-to-face confrontation.
I can completely see myself in my older years being the kind of old lady who doesn't want anyone cleaning in my house - so in a way I can kind of stand in your mom's shoes. BUT - it's getting to the point of endangering their health. You say that your dad has episodes of diarrhea - I may be wrong, but couldn't there be a connection between that and the unsanitary kitchen? If so, it's just downright dangerous for your mom to keep trying to do it all herself.
But at this point, if what your brother is reporting is true (big if!), she just won't accept help. The description of her sitting and staring as you cleaned, and him saying that she seemed defeated, actually, that probably has a grain of truth in it, as who would not feel defeated at recognizing that they can't do what they used to be able to - and feel defeated at knowing that people that love them are able to see that they can't cope. That's NOT a slam against you - your mom needs to accept her limitations, for your dad's sake if not her own.
Here's some unasked-for advice, for what it's worth - I agree that you all need to talk together, to eliminate the "he said-she said-they said" stuff. There'll undoubtedly be tears. You might need to apologize to your mom for making her feel less capable, just to keep the lines of communication open. (I don't think you have anything to apologize for, you just wanted to help - but sometimes apologizing helps even if you don't really feel you have a reason to.) And maybe you will have to do as others have said - just NOT help, or not even go for dinner.
Here's a strategy for when a shouter takes over a discussion. Don't try to out-shout. Just continue to speak quietly. Maybe turn to your mom, take her hand, and continue to speak quietly to her as the shouter blares on. And say to yourself: people shout when they know they have nothing that is worth hearing.
I still am available to go slap your brother a few times if you want. |
| | | Sparkle |
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Reply with quote | #23 |
Well, my brother and yours clearly need to get an apartment together! LOL!
I am so mad at your brother that I could slap him with a trout! He is a first class rat, and there is NO doubt about it. I did not like his demanding tone, telling what you must and must not do...Who does he think he is...your drill sergeant???? I would under NO circumstances allow him to order me around like that. I also would NOT spend Christmas with him. I believe he is jealous of you, and your husband.
Now, about what to do. It is definitely too late to keep your mom out of this one. If she has been doing what he said, then it is triangulation-telling things to one to turn them against the other, and then acting like a saint to the other one, or telling things that will also turn them against the other. It is a cruel game, and it needs to stop. She MUST face what she has said to get to the bottom of this.
I wonder how much she truly said, and how much he is embellishing with his own pompous thoughts? What a Rat!!! I'll say it again...
I would choose not to spend Christmas there. It will be pure misery in my opinion. Why put yourself through that?
As to the cleaning, during the 3 1/2 years that I cared for my mom after my dad died, I also had to start cleaning some things for my own safety. I cleaned the main bathroom almost every time I visited. (I live in the same town.) I dusted some when everything got so thick that it was a health hazard. But she would tell me to stop if she caught me.
I often asked her to tell me if she needed some hired cleaning help, but she always answered, "Not yet." She had no intention of ever getting any help. Lord knows what her house must be like now that my brother lives there. (He is a piggy for sure.) She also had many diarrhea and urine accidents. And the food in her fridge also worried me, as it often stayed way past expiration.
I just want to hug you, and say how much I understand. My brother (Golden Boy)is just like this, too! Even if I do go limited contact again (as opposed to no contact) with my mom, I will not spend the family Christmas with them anymore. Life is too short for that kind of holiday. I was the one who cleaned and scrubbed, and cooked, and planned, and killed myself for years, so that everyone could have a great Christmas at my house. I enjoyed it some, but began to burn out near the end. Last Christmas alone with my husband is truly the best one I ever had. We went away, and took a tree and decorations. (My 20 year old daughter was in England meeting her birth mom for the first time.) This year she will be with us. We have started a new tradition for our immediate family.
Now that my brother is drinking, and has treated me so poorly, I don't want to be around him. My health can't take him.
Please let us know what happens. Your initial letter was SO sweet, and you were excited about Christmas. His jerky response took the "Ho, Ho, Ho" out of everything! Priority mail him a green suit, some claws, and a Santa hat, as he is officially "The Grinch" that stole your Christmas .
You did NOTHING wrong. Many hugs and Lots of Sympathy-Sparkle
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| | | SUE |
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Reply with quote | #24 |
Dear pq,
I agree with sierraseven, the first thoughts I had of your mother's behavior was that she is a passive-aggressive type who is playing the martyr game. It seems to me that it is a no-win situation, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.
You are caring and intuitive and can see the bigger picture, you can also see that your mother is not helping herself in any way, and if she carries on insisting that she works up to an 18 hour day and still refuses help ..it is only a matter of time before everything collapses around her.
Your brother only cares about 'hurting her feelings' and is in utter collusion with her.
It appears that neither of them care a jot for hurting your feelings. Of course you could sit back and do nothing but your conscience will not allow you to do this. You are the one that is seeing the reality of the situation, your brother and your mother are in complete denial.
I think that if it were me, I would stay away from the Christmas-from-Hell all together..and make some other plans. I do not think I could spend the day in their company ... I would be just too angry and too upset.
Love from Sue.
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| | | NGA |
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Reply with quote | #25 |
You say that your dad has episodes of diarrhea - I may be wrong, but couldn't there be a connection between that and the unsanitary kitchen? Sierra Seven
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| | | NGA |
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Reply with quote | #26 |
The description of her sitting and staring as you cleaned, and him saying that she seemed defeated, Sierra Seven
Absolutely true this is brother's version. Is it the truth, only mom can tell you and if she doesn't and says she can't remember, it is likely that she is failing cognitively.
Sitting and staring can be a sign, not of defeat, but of AD/dementia. Couple this with the fact that your mother is making poor health , sanitation and life choices for herself and your dad, you need to consider that this situation is much larger than a meal at mom's.
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| | | pq |
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Reply with quote | #27 |
Hi, everybody, and first let me say thank you a million times for your support. I have just been in sick zombie mode all weekend, and I'm not sure how much I can write here (so it will probably be another novel), but I did want to respond and let you know what was happening.
I am so lucky to have an amazing amazing husband who is helping me get through this. I spent all yesterday literally lying on the couch, unable to concentrate enough to read or watch TV, plus I decided to come down suddenly with an upper respiratory infection. I tried not to think of this situation for most part because I needed to sort of recover from Friday (when I pretty much wept all afternoon). Your comments helped me come to a decision today, which was to forward the entire email conversationt to my dad, apologize for involving him, but saying I needed to know the truth about the situation: are any of the ugly things Brother said true? Brother will be furious if he finds out I did this, as he sent a followup email that said don't DARE tell Mom. But thanks to reading a lot of your stories and advice, I realized that, while I don't want my parents to be hurt, it's also not fair that I have to endure this kind of punishment. If Brother is telling the truth, I will change my behavior, but (I told Dad) I pray you know that I have NEVER done anything in order to "showboat" for them. I am just concerned for their health and welfare.
Several of you have asked, is Mom being passive-aggressive, telling me one thing and Brother another? I honestly don't think so. Mom HAS protested in the past to me about doing things, but she and I have also talked at length about it and come to a detente. As I said to brother, if she protests, I just finish what I'm doing cheerfully instead of arguing, and she doesn't get upset, and then we do fun things together. I think the difference is that if she protests about anything in Brother's presence, his response is along the lines of "Why are they cooking? Don't they like your cooking?" feeding those insecurities.
But either way, if the result truly is her feeling insulted, then I quit. I will sit quietly during the holidays, do nothing unless specifically requested, and watch the 81-year-old lady work herself to exhaustion. I told Husband, I just can't fight anymore; this is supremely damaging to MY health. In the meantime, I'm back to just waiting for the other shoe to drop, and some crisis to force a change. I wonder what my brother's plan will be then?
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| | | pq |
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Reply with quote | #28 |
Oh, regarding Mom's sitting and staring, this is in reference to The Incident 3 or 4 years ago when we cleaned the main bathroom (it was filthy), and I have no doubt that Mom DID do this. She was diagnosed over 40 years ago with Clinical Depression (runs in the family), but is currently not treated for it. When she's very down, she will do this. One Christmas, we bought a Christmas tree that was too huge to fit in the house. While she and I were out, Dad and the neighbor cut off a bunch of bottom limbs so the tree would fit in the stand. When Mom saw it, she was so upset that she cried and went to her room, and for the next three days did a lot of sitting around staring straight ahead and looking like the world ended. She, at least, did NOT have a multiday depression over the bathroom cleaning. |
| | | Lora C |
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Reply with quote | #29 |
NGA, I thought the exact same thing and am amazed that in the several threads devoted to this drama with dozens of replies, no one considered the memory loss/cognitive decline issue.
The elderly learn to cover for their memory loss, who doesn't want to seem in control and appear to be useful?
Was mother a clean freak to begin with? How are they handling their finances/bill paying? I think NGA hit the nail on the head, this sounds like much more than pot of meatballs.
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| | | madalyn |
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Reply with quote | #30 |
pq, (((((((((Big Hug)))))))
I'm so sorry your going thru this, it's just awful! I would not want to share any holiday with him for along time. He's being such a jerk!! I agree you should let your mom see his letter. I also would just plan on seeing her for the holiday and if she really said those things I think I'd skip this year. You need peace and calm and to think about yourself now. I pray things settle down
Wishing you the best,
Madalyn
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